BT Online Chat – June 13 2004 – FOLLOW UP

BT made his first online appearance this past Sunday. I would have posted the chat sooner… If was reachable. For some reason the site has been down all week.

Regardless of that info… Here is the chat. Again – Congrats BT!

FYI – It’s quite long.


BJKlein — Brian Trent – The Future of Immortality

BJKlein — Journalist, essayist, and novelist residing in central Connecticut,
Brian is a graduate of Teikyo Post University with a B.A. in English and Philosophy.
Brian joins ImmInst to discuss his recent article in the Humanist, “The
Future of Immortality”.

BJKlein —…st=0#entry32048

BrianTrent — Glad to be here.

BJKlein — sorry if the links are not working

BJKlein — Thanks much for joining us…

BrianTrent — I appreciate the invite.

BJKlein — I must admit I havn’t read Humanist article, as I’ve yet to subscribe..

BrianTrent — You have a very interesting site here..

BJKlein — but it’s great to see it on the front cover

Randolfe — Brian, I read most of your essay. Really good. I just wonder about
your concept of “continual learning” since it is my observation that
most people don’t use the limited time they have to continue learning during
their current short lives.

BrianTrent — That was a surprise. They didn’t tell me it would be a cover story.
* BJKlein nods

BrianTrent — Randolfe, I admit I was being optinmistic in most of the article…

BrianTrent — I like to think that with plenty of time on our hands, we could
devote a portion of it to learning.

Randolfe — My friend told me to go out and get the magazine. He had seen it
in the bookstore but they were sold out at Barnes and Noble when I went looking
for it.

BrianTrent — A revival, perhaps, of the more classical science/philosophy found
in the eras when science was foremost.

BJKlein — How long have you been connected to Humanism?

BrianTrent — Never formally. I didn’t pay much attention to the philosophy
until this publication, actually.

Randolfe — Brian I thought your comments about the great amount of continuing
output from Beethoven, Newton and Goethe was really inspiring.

BrianTrent — Since then, I’ve come to deeply admire its goals.

John_Ventureville — Brian, for those of us who have not yet had the chance
to read your article, could you quickly summarize it for us?
*** Joins: Marquis (

BrianTrent — My article explores the social, philosophical, governmental, and
scientific ramifications of immortality.

BJKlein —

BrianTrent — Essentially, it is an endorsement of this kind of research…

Randolfe — John (and others), it really helps to explore the links on BJK’s
email announcing the chat.

BrianTrent — but it takes a long hard look at how the achievement of this goal
will spell the end of the world we know.

BJKlein — What prompted you to write it, Brian?

BrianTrent — I had just read Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations. It is his personal
essay on mortality, and the entire theme — indeed, a theme he beats you over
the head with — is that we will all die, it’s inevitable, and we must accept

BrianTrent — I admire Aurelius, but I disagreed… vehemently.

BJKlein — excellent

BrianTrent — I decided to write an essay, from the vantage point of my own
century, and politely refute his thesis statement.

BJKlein — Seems many come to the conclucion that death is inevitable first,
and then make reasons why that fact is ‘good’

BJKlein — later

BrianTrent — In fact, the motto of your site — “Conquering the blight
of involuntary death” is essentially the theme of my essay.
* BJKlein gives Brian a high-five

BrianTrent — In my experience, most people accept that death is inevitable.
The idea of immortality is dismissed out-of-hand.

Randolfe — Perhaps I am a “conservative” Immortalist, but it seems
to me real “immortality” is impossible. Accidental death will get you
if you live for hundreds of years. I think we need an “expanded” concept
of immortality which includes that reality.

BrianTrent — I find this ironic, given the scientific accomplishments of the
last 50 years alone.

BrianTrent — Well…

BrianTrent — Dr. Rose was careful about using the word “immortality”.

BJKlein — you’re talking about Michael Rose?

BrianTrent — He said that we must figure in a mortality distribution curve,
something that calculates (or guestimates) the chances of death from accidents,
disease, etc.

BrianTrent — Even with this curve, he told me he expects humans to live 1200
to 2000 years.

BJKlein — this is Aubrey de Grey’s approach as well

BJKlein — Aubrey = 5,000 yrs

Randolfe — “Immortality” is something of an absolute. It is like
saying I will “never” do this or that when circumstances might cause
you to do so.

John_Ventureville — indefinite lifespan or emortality might be better terms
than immortality

BrianTrent — The way I see it…. the thirsts of some human beings aren’t easily
satisfied with seven or eight decades. Immortality research, even if it can’t
give us eternity, can prolong our time on this stage. And that stage changes
every few centuries anyway.

BJKlein — Brian, what is your basic reason for why we should strive for physical

BrianTrent — Yes, John, I agree.

BJKlein — or emortality, etc.

BJKlein — life extension..

Randolfe — John, I think “emortality” is a great concept. It solves
the “absolutist” problem while holding on to the ideal.

BrianTrent — I believe in the potential of the human race. We are the only
species to stand on the verge of extending life. I think good things will come
of it, more than bad.

BJKlein — thus, if you thought more bad would come, you’d commit suicide?

TylerE — Sorry, Bruce, “emortality?”

BrianTrent —

BrianTrent — Nope, I’d accept the existentialist philosophy and move on.

Randolfe — “Fighting the blight of involuntary death” does not exclude
one chosing suicide.

TylerE — “e” = “imm” or

BrianTrent — Exactly. Death would be voluntary.

TylerE — i.e. “im”

BJKlein — TylerE, it’s a term some use to get around the infinite (thus thought
impossible) quality of the term immortality.

TylerE — Ah, cute

BJKlein — emorality, there was a series of articles from Till Noever via ImmInst

BJKlein —…f=67&t=1928&hl=
*** Joins: dfowler (

John_Ventureville — Brian, what do you say to those who believe a society of
near-immortals will create a social stagnation which will limit the rising generations?

BrianTrent — In our time here, we’ve reshaped the world to suit our needs…
irrigation, metalwork, genetic engineering. Essentially, for every destructive
advance we have a thousand progressive ones. Immortality research is a natural
extension of what we’ve been doing thus far.

BrianTrent — I address the very point of stagnation in my article…

Randolfe — Brian, I thought your concept of “ever growing mind” was
very interesting. I think everyone has thought “if I could just go back
and be young again ‘knowing what I know now'”.

BrianTrent — I think that yes, we could perish like bacteria in a petri dish…

Jonesey — we don’t need a whole lot of destructive advances to wipe ourselves

Jonesey — we’re there now in destructive capability.

BrianTrent — but we might also achieve a new golden age, when freed of involuntary
death we could achieve things we only dream of…

BrianTrent — There was a time when I focused on the negative aspects to humanity…

BrianTrent — But the truth, I think, is that we are both Id and Superego, to
put it in Freudian terms.
*** Joins: gustavo (

BrianTrent — It wasn’t so long ago we were stalking mammoth and waging war
with each other over limited cave-dwelling resources.

John_Ventureville — Brian, I think humanity has suffered so much over the millennia
that we are like a released p.o.w. who cannot drop his guard and start wholeheartedly
loving life once again due to the horrors in his past

Randolfe — “Social stagnation” is understandable when you look at
how generations get “stuck in time”. How many old folks vote Republican?

John_Ventureville — so even with the wondrous technologies coming, we still
somehow expect more of the same (pain, war, death, scarcity)

dfowler — agreed I think we are damaged goods

BJKlein — So, Brian, have you given cryonics a thought as a way to avoid the
problem of accidential or ‘natural’ death?

BrianTrent — I don’t expect some Age of Aquarius hippie revolution, when this
technology is achieved. All change comes through a forge of suffering and, at
times, severe violence. I expect both to accompany this revolution.

Randolfe — dfowler, do “damaged goods” deserve immortalioty? Or should
it be limited to those deserving of it?

BrianTrent — Cryonics? yes. As a teenager, I even did a paper on Alcor.
*** Joins: Cyn (

John_Ventureville — Randolfe, to an extent I believe we are all “damaged

BrianTrent — The technology isn’t there yet, however, but I suppose with no
other options it’s better than nothing.

dfowler — we are damaged that is even more reason that we all deserve immortality

John_Ventureville — and “damaged goods” as a larger social unit,
i.e. society

dfowler — right

BrianTrent — I understand people who are concerned about the problems that
an immortal populace will bring.

Jonesey — an immortal lil kim of north korea…

Randolfe — dfowler, you apparently believe in “redemption”. My experience
is that some people are “beyond redemption” however you define it.

John_Ventureville — Hitler, yep!

John_Ventureville — Stalin, yep!

John_Ventureville — Hussein, yep!

Randolfe — George Bush,. yep!

BrianTrent — Every major revolution, from the Age of Exploration to the Industrial
and Nuclear Ages, gives us a test to pass or fail. Immortality would be another

dfowler — I believe in redemption because we all live in ‘barbaric times’ to
quote BJ’s post at MM

John_Ventureville — Dr. James Hughes, yep!

Jonesey — hehehehe

John_Ventureville — oops!!

John_Ventureville — *sorry!!*

John_Ventureville — just joking

Marquis — i like the term non-aging, rather than immortal. You could always
kill a non-aging tyrant, but not an immortal one.

John_Ventureville — physical trauma is a bitch!

BJKlein — Brian, have you given much thought to the idea of Kurzweil and accellerating

John_Ventureville — even medical nano could only do so much if a mountain lands
on you

Randolfe — I love the idea of stopping aging. But, for me, that would mean
living as a 66 year old forever. Might beat dying but I want to be young again.

BrianTrent — About tryants… it was the first emperor of a unified China who
built his life around finding immortality. He even sent people all over the Earth
to ifnd it for him.

BrianTrent — What kind of accelerating technology?

BJKlein — AI mainly

Randolfe — Don’t forget Ponce deLeon hunting for the Fountain of Youth in Florida.

BJKlein — but everything in general

BrianTrent — I firmly believe AI will be achieved in our lifetime…

BrianTrent — I can’t say I’m overly excited about it, however.

Randolfe — Brain, will we “control” AI or will it “control us”?

John_Ventureville — Brian, what is your opinion regarding the singularity?

dfowler — why not?

John_Ventureville — AI may prove the loving parent/God figure humanity has
always pined away for

BrianTrent — About AI, imagine if you were thousands of times smarter, with
thousands of times more data at your access, than the naked monkeys ordering
you around. What would you do: Listen to them or figure out ways to improve your
own chances of survival, as all srntient creatures must?

BrianTrent — Singularity? I’m assuming you’re not talking about black holes.

John_Ventureville — no

dfowler — Randolfe I’m reading the Quest for Immortality talks about fountains
as a staple of immortality

Randolfe — I’d kill any naked monkey that rtried to rule over me.

BrianTrent — Exactly.

John_Ventureville — singularity is when AI reach a point where they can increasingly
exponentially upgrade themselves and their powers go right of the charts

BrianTrent — Ahh…

John_Ventureville — essentially what we were already talking about

John_Ventureville — the consensus seems to be that singularity will occur sometime
around 2030

Randolfe — dfowler, what is “Quest for Immortality”. Hope I don’t
seem too stupid.
*TylerE* You may want to kindly point Brian to SIAI’s site, especially our moral
AI theory

BrianTrent — Difficult ot predict something like that. In biological terms,
you’re talking about the digital equivalent of introducing a “grey goo” into
an existing environment.

dfowler — it’s a new book I got talks about history of the immortality movement
back till its babylonian days

John_Ventureville — Brian, back to your earlier comment about AI being bothered
by the smelly primates around it….

dfowler — really good

BJKlein — Brian, for future ref., you may wish to see
for more on the Singularity

Marquis — Brian, I became interested in immortality, through the philosophy
of Neo-Tech Are you familiar with them or been influenced at
all by them?

Randolfe — dfowler, who wrote it. Post info on the suggested reading list.

John_Ventureville — it is perhaps a mistake to anthropomorphize AI by giving
them human-like emotions and motivations

Randolfe — I agree, John. That is my entire objection to AI.

John_Ventureville — despite all their intellectual power they may have no inclination
at all to rebel

dfowler — emphasis on pseudoscience and charlatans I’ll post when chat is over

BrianTrent — No. My interest in immortality came about when I realized that
I would die.

John_Ventureville — or develop any motivation other than following instructions

BJKlein — Brian, put bluntly… do you think Death=Oblivion?

BrianTrent — About AI, I don’t think the average sci-fi scenario will be played
out. Yes, it’s easy to assign human ambition to it.

Randolfe — BJK, isn’t that equation Death=Oblivion the basis for all our beliefs?
*** Joins: Shawn (

BrianTrent — Oblivion? Honstly, I think all the data indicates, “Yes.”
* BJKlein nods to Randolfe

BJKlein — Brian, thus would this compel one to embrace “Immortality” rather
than “Emortality”

John_Ventureville — but then again as they upgrade themselves they may make
a “jump forward” where they become similar enough to us in terms of
mental processes to be a real potential threat

BrianTrent — Depends on which one is feasbile and achieved. Strive for one,
live with the other.

BJKlein — heh or die

John_Ventureville — right!

Randolfe — BJK, let’s not get ‘politically correct’. I’ll settle for emortality.

John_Ventureville — the Society for Venturism had a real fight within the membership
on what to name our magazine

John_Ventureville — I and others wanted the title to be “Physical Immortality”

Randolfe — John, what were the suggested names?

John_Ventureville — but this offended some for reasons already discussed here
*** Joins: MitchH (

John_Ventureville — “Quest for Immortality”

John_Ventureville — “Immortal”

John_Ventureville — “Indefinite Lifespan”

BJKlein — Brian, every get into the questions surrouding free will vs determinism?

BrianTrent — Yes.

dfowler — heh

BJKlein — do you have ‘control’

BJKlein — who are ‘you’

BJKlein — if we are atoms, what is the stuff that give us any control

BrianTrent — Insofaras as what our potentials allow us. I’ve read B.F. Skinner
and other psychologists who think we have limited free will, with relation to
our biological impulses.

John_Ventureville — ah, “stick the kid in the box” Skinner

Randolfe — BJK, the “arrangement of our atoms”, better known as our “genotype” gives
us control. That is one reason whey I’d consider settling for simple cloning.

BrianTrent — I don’t believe in any supernatural elements affecting free will,
if that’s what you were asking.

dfowler — I vote we eradicate some of those impulses via nano hedonic engineering

BJKlein — randy, a clone with would have diff. atoms in a diff point in space/time
= diff. person

BJKlein — just like a twin

Randolfe — “nano hedonic engineering” sounds like an anti-sex crusade.

John_Ventureville — it seems to me that even a reductionist should feel personal
freedom of choice at least up to a point exists despite the immense influence
of heredity and environment, though I do admit they largely set the perameters

dfowler — read David Pearce Hedweb Hedonist Imperrative

BJKlein — Brian, thus everything from the big bang til now has a deterministic

BJKlein — it could be measured via physics

BrianTrent — The fear of stagnation was brought up earlier; like in Anne Rice’s
books, vampire societies get stuck in their old ways of life and enter a state
of torpor. That’s certainly happened with some earthly empires/civilizations
already. I think it would consantly involve a rebellion, a gladiatorial game
between the elements of society which are comfortable with the status quo and
those who want to further it and rock the boat. The story of our l

John_Ventureville — I love the Hedweb website

Randolfe — BJK, better a twin, a living extension of one’s genotype than “oblivion”.

BJKlein — randy, better work for something other than cloning than to avoid

Jonesey — physics isn’t quite deterministic, with the fundamental quantum aspect
going on and the parallel universes where everything that can happen is happening
and has happened.

Shawn — the problem with the free will vs determinism debate is that no-one
seems to know exactly they mean by “free will”, lest they confuse it
with randomness

dfowler — we can take away those deterministic tendencies those awful impulses
guiding our every move one of the reasons I’m a — H

BJKlein — perhaps put the energy into a more leveraged vehicle

BrianTrent — I do feel freedom of choice… I believe all humans should.

Randolfe — Cloning is “the least” I will accept. I aspire to more.

BJKlein — ah, that’s cool

BrianTrent — That will certainly be an important philosophical matter when
an eternal society is brought about.

John_Ventureville — I really could see a potential vicious horror on an epic
scale between “extropian-types” and more statist people who just want
to enjoy the “good life” which AI and mature nano can bring, but without
utterly transcending their humanity

Shawn — transcending our humanity is inevitable

Shawn — I don’t see how you could envision it otherwise

dfowler — interesting point John…

dfowler — really good point…

BJKlein — Brian, are you working on more immortality related writings?

BrianTrent — It depends, I think, on what you mean by “transcending our

Shawn — unless they’re content to live out their lives, and perhaps become
extinct at some point

BrianTrent — I write novels and essays on a variety of subjects…

BJKlein — have you come across ‘transhumanist’ philosophy

BrianTrent — Scientific, sociological, historical, and political. To me, they
all tie in together.

BrianTrent — Yes.

John_Ventureville — I mean leaving our homo sapiens bodies behind to upload
and perhaps become jupiter brain planetary computer brains, etc.

Randolfe — I am someone who rarely reads fiction. I appreciate that most of
the public loves it. I just believe in “non-fiction” and wonder why
y0u choose to write fiction?

BrianTrent — I prefer straightforward humanism.

Shawn — i want a jupiter brain

dfowler — wha’ts a jupiter brain?

BJKlein — thus, Brian you wish to keep your biological body..

BrianTrent — My historical novels are a fusion of fact and fiction. Fiction
allows you to fill in the blanks.

BrianTrent — Yes.
* BJKlein nods

John_Ventureville — I want a very enhanced version of the body I already have

Shawn — as i understand it, just a really big comp

Shawn — or network of processing units

John_Ventureville — the size of a gas giant!

BJKlein — Brian, if your heart was bad, would you accept an artificial heart?

BrianTrent — Absolutely.

dfowler — good questions BJ

BJKlein — how far would you take this?

BrianTrent — I don’t believe in biological purity.

BrianTrent — I believe in improving the human life.

BJKlein — what is you thought your brain was not smart enough to write..

Randolfe — Brian, would you give up your entire body to live in a cyborg?

John_Ventureville — Brian, to what percentile would you allow your organic
brain cells to be replaced with artificial neurons?

BrianTrent — Certainly, in improving the things that Mother Nature didn’t think

John_Ventureville — 10?

John_Ventureville — 50%?

BrianTrent — First, I’d need to see the success rate of the transplant

BJKlein — would you accept a brain connected to a computer to give you more
ability to write faster/better, perhaps

Shawn — i think such improvements in replacing body parts or brain parts will
occur in wetware before hardware

Cyn — If our memories could be uploaded to a computer, would that be “us” our
soul on the computer, or just a mere copy?

Randolfe — Brian, once again. Can yopu envision “human life” as we
know it without a “human body”?

BrianTrent — replacing neurons would eventually lead to the debates on having
back-up copies of your brain in case anything happens to the one you’ve got.

BrianTrent — A tough question…

Shawn — the biological system is so complex that it’s easier to work with it
than to try to replace it with silicon or titanium

Shawn — at least for the near future i think

BJKlein — Shawn, it’s already happening now.. but the cross-over will be from
regenerative to enhancement…

Shawn — i know about the multielectrodes in the brain, but that’s crude

BJKlein — Brian, what if it happened in degrees…

BrianTrent — If you go with Descartesian philosophy and strip away everything
but the Cogito ergo sum, then I think you can certainly have a rationale mind
without a body.

BJKlein — small parts over a long time..

BrianTrent — Everything we use to define humanity BESIDES logic and rational
thought would be sacrificed, with what you’re talking about.

BrianTrent — Personally, I enjoy both.

BJKlein — Brian, what’s so great about ‘humanity’ heh

Shawn — it might be easier to think about enhancing certain parts of your brain
using grafts, or genetic means, or pharmacologica or growth factors

Shawn — you could essentially grow whatever parts of your brain you wanted,
transform it into whatever you wanted

dfowler — nothing

Shawn — just like growing a plant

Shawn — and trimming it, and splicing it

Shawn — you have to work with the biology, not replace it

Shawn — at least not for the time being, until the hardware becomes much more

Randolfe — I want to have the “bodily” ability to smell, taste, hear,
love, have orgasms, etc.

Shawn — AI is a different matter though

BrianTrent — Humanity is the one species that isn’t a slave to every whim of
Mother Nature. We’ve constantly remade the world to fit our needs. We generally
look out for each other. we calculate the cosmos from our little corner, and
figure out ways of reaching it, changing it, understanding it.

BJKlein — we didn’t stand upright for nothing

John_Ventureville — Brian, I have known people who have not had children because
they had such strong reservations about the future. Do you at all feel the same
way? What would you tell any children of yours about the world they were growing
up in?

BrianTrent — Two thousand years ago, a Greek scientist figured out the size
of the Earth using sticks and shadows. THAT is what impresses me about humanity.

BrianTrent — The future…

BJKlein — but, where does that stop?

BrianTrent — I certainly have strong reservations about the future, and strong
hopes as well.

BJKlein — or should or could it keep going more…

BJKlein — talking about advanced in tech..

BJKlein — but are not your hopes and feelings based in ‘human’ thought..

BrianTrent — Depends on the technology. I would definitely draw a line at an
antimatter bomb.

BJKlein — perhaps there is another way to think..

Randolfe — We can do anything, accomplish anything. Nothing is impossible because
we are thinking people with large minds and huge hearts and the ability to dream.

BJKlein — cats, horses, etc think in certain ways..

dfowler — you mean non anthropocentrically?

BrianTrent — My concerns about the future keep me writing…

Shawn — some perplexing philsophical questions have natural answers in different
states of mind. The philosophical perplexities of today will be answered by the
more enlightened/transcendent state-of-mind of tomorrow (and to some extent,

BrianTrent — And voting…

BrianTrent — Randolfe, I’d only choose cybernetic enhancements if they retained
the senses and pleasures that my human body allows.

BJKlein — Shawn, we’re also limited by our language..

BJKlein — the words we use, etc. and the medium

dfowler — Perhaps a technology like AI will completely revolutionize our ability
to think, how we think, and what we think

BrianTrent — Your list is something I agree with

Shawn — I was just thinking of Bruce’s question of where this is all going…..
and I was thinking that maybe that question may be answered naturally in a different
frame-of-mind, a different perspective

John_Ventureville — I just want everyone to know that until America has missles
armed with anit-matter warheads which are aimed at their enemies that I will
not be able to hold my head up high as a member of the greatest empire in the
history of the world!

Randolfe — Brian, you are my hero. That is exactly the way I feel!!!

John_Ventureville — : )

Shawn — but admittedly, your question is rather perplexing now

BrianTrent — About where we’re going… I don’t think there’s an inevitable
Finish Line.

BJKlein — Shawn, perhaps we already know the answer, basically we’re headed
toward more organization.. and jupiter brains

BrianTrent — We make our own rules.

BJKlein — univeral brain

Shawn — we are too caught up in our notions of time now to really answer the

Shawn — the way we perceive time is a problem

BJKlein — we’re all connected to some degree now.. but more so in the future..

BJKlein — we just need to stay alive to see it..

Shawn — the way we perceive time leads to these perplexing questions of where
it’s all going and where’s the future headed

BJKlein — we’re all helping now.. even the janitorial workers
*** Joins: Chubtoad (

Shawn — but my thoughts are that time is just an illusion anyway… where not
really going anywhere

John_Ventureville — hey, imagine how the world would look without janitorial

Randolfe — “JUpiter brains”?? I think I have one already. That is
why I have headaches sometimes (ha).

dfowler — it would be a sad sad world indeed

BrianTrent — I think the most important thing for any society is advancement,
in the artistic and scientific spheres at the very least.,

BrianTrent — In turn, in societal terms.

BJKlein — Shawn, i think perception of time is better if just think of degrees
of probablity.. the is no time.. just probabilities of stuff happening

BrianTrent — We’ve had Dark Ages before… even an eternal society would have
this to worry about.

Shawn — that’s interesting, yes

Randolfe — Brian, how do you see the role of “art” in advancing Immortalism?

BJKlein — it more likely that i misspell 1 out of 10 words, is an example

John_Ventureville — I remember as a young boy scout reading in Boy’s Life magazine
and reading a great article by Isaac Asimov about how robots could free human
workers from physical drudge work.

Shawn — and then you have many-worlds hypotheses which says that “everything” happens

BJKlein — Brian, you agree with Darwin, no?

BJKlein — Evolution.. etc

BJKlein — our great, great… etc. grandparents were tiny bactera

John_Ventureville — mine were highly culture amoeba’s

BrianTrent — Art is a canvas for the expression of everything that makes us
human, when it’s done well. Look at poetry (good poetry.) Our hopes, fears, our
vision of proper society, our histories and passions…art isn’t predicated on
mortality (though it draws lots of inspiration fromt it. As I mentioned in my
article, immortal artists may find Muses in something else.

John_Ventureville — speak for yourself

BrianTrent — Yes, I agree with Darwin.

BJKlein — Thus, would evolution end with humans?

BJKlein — is humanity the best

Shawn — how about Stuart Kauffman, who saught to extend darwins notions by
introducing self-organizing systems

BrianTrent — Not all evolution.

Randolfe — BJK, I reject my “bacterial” relatives. I kill them every
day with Lysol.

BrianTrent — I don’t know about “best.”

BJKlein — Randolfe, you’re an immortalist… respect your cousins!

BrianTrent — It’s a big universe.

dfowler — hee hee hee

John_Ventureville — in my dorm a group of students started an “activist
group” which put up signs all over campus to defend bacterial rights

BJKlein — heh

Randolfe — BJK, I might be an Immortalist. I once considered myself a Jain
(those who sweep the bugs from the walk because they worship all life) but I
am now more realistic.

BJKlein — 5 min til end of official chat..

BJKlein — please feel free to stay!~

BrianTrent — The thing about evolution is, we spite it every time we take medicine
or give eyeglasses to children. We don’t need, as I wrote, to surrender to natural
selection. We spite it, and happily.

Randolfe — I love “spiting” natural selection!

Shawn — the interesting thing about evolution is that we’re at a point where
we can modify our own species, essentially. We are playing the role that Nature
once played in natural selection. The possibilities for evolving our species,
and other species, are quite fascinating

dfowler — your funny randolfe

BJKlein — Brian, what is ‘mother nature’

John_Ventureville — and that nerdy four-eyed kid can wear contacts or get surgery
and still get a chance as a young adult with the pretty female looking for a

John_Ventureville — again, playing games with natural selection

BrianTrent — “Mother Nature” is just the anthropomorphic face given
to the forces of our world… I certainly don’t subscribe to the New Age Gaia
Hypothesis, or anything like that.

Shawn — why not?

BrianTrent — I see no evidence for a consciousness of the planet.

BJKlein — forces = measurable

John_Ventureville — what is your view on complexity theory?

Shawn — i’m impartial, but I was just curious

BJKlein — forces = real and determistic

dfowler — aka PlanetP

Randolfe — Shawn, the most important statement in Lee Silver’s book, “Remaking
Eden” was his observation that “once humankind was able to conceive
outside thge womb” it took control of its own evolution. I quoted that in
my testimohy to Congress in 1997, I believe.

BrianTrent — I mention in my article that we have a tendency to think of Nature
as a Disney character, when in actuality nature is brutal, red-in-tooth-and-claw.

John_Ventureville — so you are not a huge fan of the David Brin novel “Earth”?

John_Ventureville — lol!
* BJKlein claps for Brian

John_Ventureville — I love the quote “civilization is a protest against

Shawn — I’ll have to look for Lee Silver’s book. Thanks Randolfe

BrianTrent — Randolfe, what did you testify to Congress about?

Randolfe — Brian, nature is so terrible I can hardly watch those National Geographic
programs. Turned it off last night when the Polar Bear was closing in on the
Walrus pup.

Shawn — lol

BrianTrent —

Shawn — you’ve gotta accept Nature with her warts and all I guess

BrianTrent — It’s actually worse when you watch killer whales playing ping
pong with baby seals.

Randolfe — Brain,. I am the “Pro-Human-Cloning advocate”, one of
the few in this country.
* BJKlein End Official Chat

BJKlein — ya, Randy is our CNN man

Shawn — though the death and red-in-tooth-and-claw has a certain sadistic beauty
to it

BrianTrent — Good for you, Randolfe. We need more of you.

dfowler — yeah Randolfe

Randolfe — Thank you, Brian. I am often “underappreciated.

BJKlein — Randy, if you’d just be easy on the bacteria..
*** Joins: kzzch (

Randolfe — we could always clone them.Thank you, Brian. I am often “underappreciated.

BJKlein — ya we know..
* BJKlein pats Randolfe on the back

BJKlein — and kills a few thousand skin bacteria

dfowler — heh

BrianTrent — Thank you all very much for having me.

Randolfe — Anything to get rid of acne.

BJKlein — Thanks so much Brian!

BrianTrent — I hope you all get around to reading the article.

BJKlein — fun chatter tonight

dfowler — thank you brian

Randolfe — Brain, yo0u were really great tonight.

Shawn — thanks Brian

BrianTrent — Out of curiosity, are any of you from the New England area?

dfowler — I am

dfowler — Boston

BJKlein — please consider coming back anytime.. and/or we’d be happy to post
any of your work to ImmInst

BJKlein — our members would love to give feedback, im sure

Shawn — does baltimore count as new england area?

Marquis — thanks for promoting the idea of immortality …the more common the
idea becomes, the more people will start to desire it, and the more market forces
will seek to satisfy it

Randolfe — Brian, I live in Hoboken, NJ. My phone nubmer is 201-656-3280. Give
me a call and we can meet in NYC.

BJKlein — Marquis, good point

John_Ventureville — Brian, it was an excellent chat

BrianTrent — Thank you… given the force that supports the modern day cosmetics
industry, I think the market is already there.

dfowler — Brian my number email is

BJKlein — we’re getting there.. and articles like Brian’s are where it’s happening

dfowler — love to chat

BrianTrent — Best of luck and continued success with your site.

BrianTrent — Thanks again.

John_Ventureville — Brian, send me your mailing address to me at
and I will send you a free copy of our Physical Immortality magazine

BJKlein — heh, ImmInst is no longer Bruce’s site

Randolfe — Good night to all. I wonder why so few “spoke up” tonight.

BJKlein — its the property of ImmInst members

BJKlein — who’s here?

Jonesey — nite randolfe

John_Ventureville — dang!

kzzch — bruce, what’s the deal with the investor forum?

John_Ventureville — bye, Randolfe

BJKlein — raise your hand!

Shawn — but you’re still coding the site, right Bruce?

Shawn — i’m here
* Jonesey raises middle finger, i’m here!!

John_Ventureville — Bruce, you should have declared yourself a hereditary monarch
and not given up your website

BJKlein — kzzch, it’s combined into the ImmInst Full Member discusion forum

BJKlein — because so little discussion

Jonesey — buy oil

kzzch — oh, okay.

kzzch — heh

BJKlein — John_Ventureville, i still act a little like a king now and again..

John_Ventureville — lol

John_Ventureville — Well that is your right

BJKlein — but much less now.. for fear of loosing the chair

dfowler — one of the rare discussions I attended

dfowler — good one though

BJKlein — thanks for showing devon..

kzzch — so that’s what jonesey looks like

Shawn — Bruce, why did you give up the site?

dfowler — sure…I’ll show up to more

dfowler — bye

BJKlein — Jonesey is an ImmInst Lifetime member

John_Ventureville — King Pizer the First reigns in this part of Arizona

BJKlein —

John_Ventureville — but he is not restricted by a parliamentary govt. like
the poor president of Alcor

John_Ventureville — what is the cost to be a lifetime member?

BJKlein — hmm, who is King Pizer?

kzzch — i just found that BJ

BJKlein — ah David

BJKlein — ok

John_Ventureville — yes

kzzch — Hmm, I was thinking of investing in Pfizer. I saw a commercial and
they had the best motto ever.

BJKlein — lifetime = 500

BJKlein — bargan over infinity

John_Ventureville — not a bad deal

kzzch — “Helping people live longer, healthier, happier lives.”

John_Ventureville — I would want to live forever just to be sure I got my money’s

John_Ventureville — : )

BJKlein — like insurance..

BJKlein — but in reverse

BJKlein — don’t be worth more dead than alive

kzzch — heh, what if a jupiter brain decides i’d be worth more as paperclips?

BJKlein — but, looked at in another way.. imminst may want to see its full
members dead… hmm

BJKlein — perhaps we need to reword that to 1,000 year lifetime members

BJKlein — each 1000 years pay up 500

BJKlein — that wouldn’t be a very smart jupiter brain

kzzch — i started keeping a journal and the date format i’m using is 002004.

kzzch — i think i’ve got an extra zero on there, i only wanted 02004 so i could
make it to 10,000 years old :/

BJKlein — it’s sorta cool in discussion topics with those who you know will
look back in 10 yrs at what they’ve said an go, “man, i said that?”

BJKlein — i’ve aleady done it.. i fear looking at what i said just a year ago

BJKlein — re, ideas on ‘humanism’ being the goal, etc

Shawn — bruce, what did you mean by giving up the site exactly?

BJKlein — wanting to stay biological

BJKlein — ah, i don’t own it.. it’s incorporated

BJKlein — under imminst

BJKlein — which is run by 7 member board

BJKlein —

kzzch — i’ve decided i just want live for 10,000 years and maybe try to help
like minded individuals reach the same goal.

Shawn — officially incorporated? really? wow. Congratulations

BJKlein — ty, 501c3 nonprofit

Shawn — but you’re still the coder, right? Or do others contribute with the

BJKlein — i’m the coder
*** Joins: LazLo (

BJKlein — but slowly shifting some work out

Shawn — it’s a good position to be in

BJKlein — ya.. doing thing to make our mission to end the blight of involuntary
death.. a reality..

kzzch — we need an outreach program to young single college girls.

BJKlein — that’s what i do..

Jonesey — easy kzzch recruit hunks

BJKlein — putting together a film project now..

BJKlein —

Jonesey — imminst going in the wrong direction with people like me

kzzch — i fear the party on the other side of the galaxy will be rather lackluster
if it’s full of aging male sci-fi geeks :p
* BJKlein slaps Jonesey around

Jonesey — exxactly

Jonesey — hehehe

BJKlein — yeah, no respect

Shawn — good luck with the film

BJKlein — yo LazLo

BJKlein — ty

LazLo — Perhaps the geeks need to pay attentino to some of the topicsc that
interest the women more. Hi geeks.. I mean folks

BJKlein —]

kzzch — great, i’ll work on the imminst baby-doll t shirt designs

BJKlein —

Jonesey — haha

Shawn — topics that interest women= clothes, shoes, the Sims, cleaning….
um, what else?

Jonesey — hheheh

Jonesey — shopping

BJKlein — that chat event is still open for the ladies…

Shawn — i’m just j/k

LazLo — breaking stereotypes that are fostered by insecure geeks

Jonesey — hahah

BJKlein — what else can we do for the ladies?

Jonesey — work out

Shawn — let them know they’re appreciated
* BJKlein worked out today

BJKlein — did crunches ;/

LazLo — provide themes that interest them, like issues of family, and afemale

Jonesey — heh bjk really serious about outreach

BJKlein — we need another female chat guest

BJKlein — Sonia Arrison was excellenta

Shawn — bruce, please don’t post my sexist comment about women and Sims…
if my wife ever saw that, it would be my head

Jonesey — one theme that seems to come up more with women when i talk about
immortality is fear of loneliness if they get reanimated, loss of friends, family.
much more so than with guys

BJKlein — Sonia must be a man in womans clothing.. she was all business

LazLo — I see no problem getting women to pay attention when the politics interests
them and they feel I am paying attentio to what they are communicating

BJKlein — to late Shawn

Shawn — argh!!!

BJKlein — what is your wifes name?

Shawn — lol

Shawn — just j/k

Shawn — Tabitha

LazLo — Yeah that is a point consistent with what I meant about *family* as
a topic of immortality

Shawn — hehe

BJKlein — Tabitha, please know Shawn is trying to hid stuff from you…

Jonesey — immortalist community now reminds me of the internet 15plus yrs ago

Shawn — lol
* BJKlein is mr open disclosure man

Shawn — this is not Shawn

Jonesey — mostly scientifically literate, hence male given the educational
bias in society right now

Jonesey — so just wait 15 yrs and it will all even out genderwise

John_Ventureville — BJ is the one who put his foot in his mouth….

BJKlein — yah, take a look at the chat lineup for the next few weeks..

BJKlein — all brilliant guys

John_Ventureville — “Sonia must be a man in woman’s clothing!”

Shawn — I should head out. It was nice talking with all of you again. Take
it easy (but not too easy)

John_Ventureville — EEK!!

BJKlein — seya Shawn

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